Governor Brian Schweitzer has a warm, easy-going way that speaks of Montana’s most-visited roadside restaurants and bars; that side of him shares space with a fiercely intelligent, candid and decisive individual. This combination makes him rare… especially among politicians.
Clark Fork Journal publisher Brian Eder and I were warmly received at the Governor’s office in Helena. On the afternoon of January 31, 2005, we sat around a table and spoke with Governor Schweitzer for a little over an hour. Schweitzer is curious and ever-eager to engage issues; he’s also not shy about letting you know when he’s feeling restless or bored.
Well-known for being equally open and shrewd with the press, several carefully displayed objects lined his desk and another nearby table. Small bottles and flasks containing various experimental and conventional fuels, as well as a prototype of a solar-powered hydrogen generator, sat as both a reminder of Schweitzer’s focus and as a suggestion for conversation.
This is part one of our two-part conversation:
Part Two is in the April 2006 Archive
Why Politics?
CFJ: By all accounts, you’ve been very successful as a businessman and a farmer, and that success leaves many options. So, with so many options, why did you choose to pursue a career in politics?
SCHWEITZER: Actually… To back up a little bit, Nancy and I met when we were going to college in Bozeman. She was studying botany, and I was getting my graduate degree in soils. And then, after graduation, we went overseas where we were involved in international development. When I was 30, we came back to Montana because it was time to start raising a family, and, of course, Montana is the best place in the world to raise a family. And so, we continued the business and growing our irrigation and agricultural landsour ranching business in Montana. But I continued in the export business. I was selling Montana grown and made products all over the world.
And, when I was 45, I got to thinking ‘this is all working good… I mean, we’re doing well, we’re doing good things, we’re meeting people. But there’s gotta be more.’ At the end of the day, when you’ve got a lot of energy, when you have some talents, you think ‘How can I do more? What is it I can do to put a stamp on a life? How can I help my community? How can I create opportunities for young people so that they get a chance to do some of the things that I’ve done?’ And [those questions] led to public service.
So, that’s how I got into this thing. Montana has been good to me. You know, I started without a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of, and I’m not a billionaire, but Nancy and I have done well, and we’ve done well by working hard in Montana. And I want those opportunities available to a lot of Montana kids.
Substance & Money in American Politics
CFJ: Are you familiar with the 1972 Robert Redford film “The Candidate?
SCHWEITZER: Yeah.
CFJ: OK. There’s a line in the film that strikes me, “Virtue was too hard a strain for the long trail of the campaign.” On the flipside, you’ve garnered a great deal of attention for your insistence on substantive discussions both on the campaign trail and from the bully pulpit of your office. Why is substantive conversation so rare in American politics?
SCHWEITZER: I think that a large number of politicians are spawned in the political world, which means everybody wants to be the first one to be the second one to say it. They’re scared of their own shadow. They’re not sure… ‘Well, Jesus… um, everyone else is talkin’ about this.’ Or they say, ‘Well, hold it, nobody cares.’ So, they figure, ‘If no other politician has blazed the trail, and if the polls don’t say this something that people care about, why go there?’
Not me. I just say, ‘Well, it looks to me like this is the right thing to do, and when people know more about it, they will probably agree with me.’ And sometimes you have to lead by example.
For example, there seem to be a lot of pure politicians, post-Abramoff. Everybody’s decided we need ethics reform, and that these lobbyists can be bad guys… who knew? As you remember, I made it a plank for my campaign for governor. I didn’t take PAC money. I unilaterally disarmed. It’s not against the law to take PAC money, almost everybody does take PAC money. I’m probably the only governor in America elected without taking PAC money.
But I said then, and I’ll say now, nobody can buy their way down that hall [gesturing to the long hallway that leads from the lobby to his office doorway], nobody buys their way to the front of the line. I don’t care how much you gave or where you came from. And, see, when you have a system like we do have in Montana, where you can’t take corporate money, the maximum contribution that an individual can make is $500. And if you don’t take PAC money, no one can buy undue influence.
On that basis, I took to the legislature a lot of ideas about alternative energy and about education, a lot of other things that we managed to pass… country of origin labeling. But, one of the things that I think that I failed the people of Montana? I tried to get the legislature to pass ethics reform, put a 24-month cooling-off period, or stop the revolving door, from the time that you’re a legislator or a member of the executive branch, from going out and working for a lobbyist. Because, the way it works right now… take a look around… you can, literally, within minutes of making tax and regulatory policy in Montana, you can work for those who are doing tax and regulatory policy.
You don’t have to look very far. Take a look, for example, at the last administrationbut it’s not any different than the administration beforekey members of that administration, who sat in these offices like we have around here, they… really, within hours or days of leaving public service, they were lobbying for the companies that they were supposed to be regulating or taxing. Now, when did they negotiate their compensation for their appointment? After? Well, that’s interesting… after, huh? So, in other words, within four minutes? They managed to get a job, negotiate the contract and arrive?
Doesn’t smell very good. And I’m not picking on the former administration… all you have to do is walk up to the third floor when the legislature’s in session and see all those lobbyists… a third of ‘em are former legislators. Very often, they were a legislator last session.
So I had proposed to the last legislature to close the revolving door for a 24-month period, and to have disclosure of gifts that they receive from lobbyists… they rejected me. It didn’t get out of committee.
CFJ: Why do you think that is?
SCHWEITZER: Because, uh, you know, people said, ‘Well, I want to keep my options open.’
I’m just saying there is a concern in the public psyche about elected representatives… Who do they really represent? Clean up the system! Make it transparent!
I think we’ll have a great deal more support among the folks out there that when we tell ‘em somethin’ straight, they’ll believe us.
“Before-Abramoff” & “Post-Abramoff”
CFJ: You’ve been very open in your criticisms of corruption within Washington, D.C. Beyond the problems currently being exposed by the Abramoff Scandal, it seems there’s an inherent paradox in our current political system. While the focus of electoral politics is inherently short-term, focusing on fundraising and short-term fixes,many of the problems that face our country are long-term issues requiring a continuity of policy from one elected body to the next. How can this paradox be addressed in your estimation?
SCHWEITZER: Well, I think it helps a great deal if you can divorce the need for grubbin’ for dollars from public policy. And… I go back to what I did unilaterally. But it’s very interesting, because there’s what we call ‘B.A.’ and ‘P.A.’ There’s the opinion of the political world ‘Before Abramoff’ was announced… and ‘Post Abramoff.’ I come from a frame-of-reference before Abramoff. I did things unilaterally. I was pushing for ethics reform before I ever heard about this joker. And now everybody is clamoring; it’s the crisis du jour.
The other thing is… don’t be a political party ideologue. Let me give you an interesting thought for a moment. Start with a RepublicanLincoln. He was the first person who believed in civil rights, if you will, the first great political figure. He risked it all on freeing the slaves. He was a Republican. And then, after that, the South never trusted Republicans, and they were Democrats. All those politicians from then all the way up to L.B.J. were Democrats… Dixiecrats. George Wallace, Strom Thurmond… they were Dixiecrats. They believed in a lot of issues about working people, about hope and opportunity, about taxation and regulation. But when it came to civil rights, well, they weren’t so sure.
I sat with George McGovern, who now lives part of the time in Montana. I sat on his couch down in Stevensville, and we talked about a lot of things. The nice thing about talking to a man like George McGovern, who still has all of his mental facilities about him… he’s a walking history book.
So, I said to him, at one point, ‘what was L.B.J. like? Now, he was a Texas President… was he all about polls and strategy and what it looks like in images… did he believe in The Great Society? Or was it just politically expedient?’
So, McGovern said to me, he believed in it, and he knew the consequences. [L.B.J.] knew when we passed the Civil Rights Act [of 1964] that we would lose Democrats, that we would lose elections in the South… for decades. He’s wrong, it’s a lot longer than decades… it’ll be generations. But, even with that clear understanding, because L.B.J., the master of the Senate, if he was anything he was a strategist politically. Tough… tough as a claw-hammer. But he understood politics… and that he was willing to go forward with civil rights and The Great Society even knowing and understanding the consequences long-term, and understanding the hope and opportunity it would create for a large percentage of America’s population… that the good would outweigh the political catastrophe that was awaiting the Democratic party… he did it anyway.
CFJ: If you’re talking about separating out the need for money from policy, does it boil down to a lack of political courage?
SCHWEITZER: Well, I’m getting to some place here… In doing the right thing, sometimes you have to stand up to people in your own political party, because these things shift through time. It was the Republicans, at one point, who were recognized for being bold in terms of civil rights. Then it became the Democrats who were bold in terms of civil rights. These things shift back and forth through the generations.
For example, there would be some who would suggest, ‘Well, the Democratic party, they’re the environmentalist party and they don’t want any development of any resources, everything’s off-the-table, no development of natural resources…’ But it’s me, I believe, I am a mainstream Democrat, and I say that our very society, our culture, our way of life, everything we believe in, is being challenged right now because of our dependence on foreign oil. Until we break that dependence to these Sheiks, dictators, rats and crooks, we will be in a series of skirmishes and wars for generations to come.
So, I look around and I say, ‘What can we do about wind power?’ Well, over there, is a solar-powered hydrogen generator. Over here, you have bio-diesel, a safflower, canola, camolina… three crops that we can grow in Montana and make bio-diesel out of them. Coal that we can convert through the Fisher-Tropes process to diesel. Wind power, solar power, we have opportunities of producing alternative energy. Some are green, some less green, but all of them are cleaner than the oil we’re burning today, and they all create jobs in America and will wean our dependency on foreign oil. Now, that might not be the message of an east- or west-coast Democrat, but dangit, it makes sense to me.
And I believe that given an opportunity, we can win-over folks across this country to the importance of being self-sufficient in energy. It means energy conservation, it means a fuel source that is diverse, it means a fuel source that is diverse both geographically and in chemical, physical composition. But it is the greatest challenge this society has today.
The Bedouin Mind & American Middle-East Policy
CFJ: Moving on to the time you spent in Libya and…
SCHWEITZER: Saudi Arabia most of the time… I was in Libya for less than a year, and then Saudi Arabia for more than six.
CFJ: OK. How did your time in that region inform your view of the political, military and economic struggles that have been playing out there for decades, in addition to what you’re talking about with regard to oil and the need for American self-sufficiency?
SCHWEITZER: First off, American policy makers need to understand that the Bedouin mind, the Arab-Islamic mind, is much less dependent on time, and the urgency of time. Folks in the Middle East think of the Crusades as their own conflict, not generations ago. They win negotiations with the West, always, by waiting us out. They negotiate for a day, a month? Still nothing. A year…. forget about it. A generation? It’s longer. That we think we’re going to settle conflicts in the Middle East during a single presidential administration, for example, is ludicrous.
And there’s more. There is a cultural clash that goes even beyond religion. The religious-cultural clash is such that the world is getting smaller, and with communication and transportation becoming so available to people all over the world, the fundamentalist Islamic societies feel threatened by Western culture every single day.
The way we dress is repugnant to them. The exposure of women in the way that we do, even the way that we as men dress, the way we eat, the way we bathe, even the way we use toilet facilities, it is really alien to them and they just don’t understand it. So, they see us as a challenge to their way of life, culturally, much the way I see the challenge of us being energy independent as a challenge to our way of life. And so, I think we both win if we severe our ties with them. They want to run their deal the way they want to run itculturally, economicallyfine. You do what you want to do, don’t bother us, we won’t buy oil from you, you won’t have money to support terrorism, and we both start evening this deal.
They are not, as some would portray them, evil people. They are some of the greatest family people you’ll ever meet, with several generations living in a single house or compound. Their children know their grandparents better than most families in America do. Their families are close togetherbrothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, cousins. It’s still tribal, because they still recognize the importance of family. Family values? They trump on that. Prayer? They pray all the time, five times a day! Fast? During Ramadan, the whole month of Ramadan, they don’t eat or drink from sun-up to sundown. Inference to God? Every time they say a sentence that begins with ‘Inshah’allah,’ it’s ‘God willing.’ ‘Alham-dul-lilah,’ is ‘all praise be to God.’ It’s like you’re in a Baptist revival church. In all conversation, all day long. All of those things are things that a lot of Americans cherish. It’s just that they are Muslim and we are Christian, and they see our culture as a challenge to theirs.
Schweitzer on Osama bin Laden
SCHWEITZER: I think that what we’re doing in the Middle East is wrong-headed. We are creating large numbers of Osama bin Ladens in future generations. Absolutely, we have got to put a stake in terrorists. Osama bin Laden, his story is that he came from the bin Laden family, which is one of the five big families in Arabia that were not in the royal family, they were in the construction business in Jedda and Dhahran. You know, all the big construction projects in Arabia then, the bin Ladens had a portion of it.
His uncle’s brothers had become very Westernized. But it’s not so dissimilar to Montana families… I’m a Catholic. You’ll see a guy, he’s a run-around kind of a guy, he’ll drink with the boys and get kind of loud, and then he has a brother who is a Benedictine monk.
Alright, so here is bin Laden, and here is his rub. His rub is twofold: one is that he was a leader in the Muja Hadin in Afghanistan and during that time when he was fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan, we supported him. I mean, our CIA was right there with him. He was a great leader. Tall for a Saudi, passionate, a great orator, his religious faith was unshakable; he was a titan among those who would die for the cause of the Muja Hadin.
Fortunately, he was fighting who he considered to be anti-God Russians and trying to defend his Muslim brothers in Afghanistan. [….]
The cities of Mecca and Medina are recognized by the whole Islamic world as the holiest of cities. And what frustrated Osama bin Laden, and other members of the extremely conservative Wahhabi branch of the Sunni religion in Saudi Arabia, was that the Saudi regime was being propped-up by the American military. And the American military was there in large number, in great strength, the whole time that I lived there during the 80s. And they’d been there all the way back, protecting Aramco, from the time we decided Arabia was going to be our oil resource.
And so to have an infidel army in the country that was the protector of the holy cities of Mecca and Medina was extremely repugnant to him and the radical branches. So, in our request and need and desire for Saudi oil, we have spawned a couple of generations of people who hate the royal family and hate us for empowering them. There is the spawn of Osama bin Laden and many like him. As long as they didn’t have money, you know what, they were a bunch of poor, renegade Bedouins. But now that these sheikdoms have become so wealthy, and they have money, the royal family right nowand has for the last 50 yearsthey’ve built an unholy alliance with these terrorists. They give them money as long as [the terrorists] leave them alone. Well, it’s gonna come back to roost.
Mining, Coal Liquefication & American Energy Independence
CFJ: Let’s go back to a question about energy. Your ideas about coal liquefication have gotten a lot of press. As I understand it, while coal liquefication could offer some independence from foreign oil in the U.S., its long-term environmental impact would rival or exceed the impact of Montana’s mining legacy. How do you propose to balance the benefits of coal liquefication with the long-term environmental sustainability of Montana?
SCHWEITZER: I challenge the premise of what you just described. The long-term effects of mining in Montana have been from hard-rock mining, and the exposure of pyrite rock. When you expose the ferrous sulfite to both water and air, it creates an acidification process and you get acid water draining out the side of a mountain. Heavy metalscadmium, lead, zinc, coppertheir solubility increases as you lower the pH of water. The more acid the water, the larger concentration of these heavy metals that you will have. That’s our problem about hard-rock mining, and that’s the legacy of hard-rock mining in Montana. What we’re proposing is coal mining…
CFJ: Which is mostly open-pit mining…
SCHWEITZER: Open-pit. It is 30 or 40 feet of surface disturbance. You expose a bed of coal that might be 15 to 30-feet thick. You take the coal out, you replace the overburden, and then the tin veneer of topsoil goes back over the top, then you replant it to its native vegetation. The people who don’t think that we can do it haven’t traveled to Colstrip. They haven’t stood in a pit where we’re actively mining, and then gone a quarter mile away and stood and [said], ‘look, this used to be the mine. And now, you can’t tell the difference between this terrain and the terrain around it.’ This is something that is substantially different.
OK, so it is clear that we can coal mine and we can do it responsibly, and we can replace it to its original circumstance.
All right, so what about the coal liquefaction itself? Well, those people who don’t like coal, they say, ‘Oh, but when you burn coal, you have all that mercury and sulphur that goes up the smokestack.’ There’s no smokestack in this process. This a chemical-physical process, under pressure, where you’re effectively removing the energy, and you can remove all the mercury and sulphur. None of it goes through a smokestack. There’s none. Zero.
The carbon dioxide? You know coal has a much higher predominance of carbon per unit of hydrogen than, for example, diesel and natural gas. So you end up with extra carbon. Instead of spewing it up a smokestack like you do when you burn coal, you’re able to remove it and pressurize the CO2 as pure CO2, and pump it back into the earth and sequester it. That is called Enhanced Oil Recovery, E.O.R., you pump it back into the earth at a place that is producing natural gas or oil, and what you do is, if you’re a thousand feet deep where you have your oil-bearing rock, you pump your carbon dioxide back down to that level, and it increases the pressure, and it increases the viscosity of the oil, makes it slicker, and you increase your oil recovery.
CFJ: What are the savings with coal liquefaction as opposed to importing oil?
SCHWEITZER: We can produce diesel in Montana from Montana coal for a dollar a gallon. And diesel costs two dollars a gallon. It’s there, we could do it for less money than by importing.
CFJ: Does that one-dollar per gallon factor-in set-up costs?
SCHWEITZER: Absolutely. The whole works.
CFJ: So, then, would you still tax just that dollar so that the consumer would receive a significant savings as well?
SCHWEITZER: Absolutely. Diesel, right now, for off-road dieselwhich is the non-taxed diesel that you use not on the highway but if you have farm equipment or somethingit sells for about $2, about $2.09 per gallon. On-road [diesel] is some $2.65 or something, because that’s your tax? I’m saying production costs, so if you sold the diesel, if there’s a 65-cent tax, you’d sell it at $1.65. But, the point is, we can do it for less than current prices in oil. And current has a big “C,” because before 9/11, oil was in the twenties. Now, that was 2001, that was over five years ago. And I’m saying we can do it for a dollar a gallon, that’s $40. See, so, even three years ago this process was unthinkable, economically, because of the price of oil.
Will the price of oil drop below $30 per barrel? I asked it out loud, I don’t know the answer for sure. But I think it doesn’t. And if that’s correct, then we better get going with this sort of a solution. And it’s not just [coal liquefaction], it’s wind power, it’s bio-diesel, it’s solar power. There have been quantum leaps forward in the technology to produce these energy sources. So, I challenge the premise… I challenge it as a political leader, and I challenge it even greater as a scientist.
In Part Two of CFJ’s conversation with Governor Schweitzer: Abortion & Privacy, So-called “Nativist” politics in Montana, Allocation of Montana’s tobacco settlement money, Schweitzer on the Montana Stream Access Law…